Let’s start with some personal questions. What do you do in your downtime?
Well, pre-Covid I enjoyed reading, playing trivia, and spending time with my nieces and nephew. I am part of a pub trivia team where I have been playing for years. One of my life goals is to be a contestant on Jeopardy but I doubt I will ever get there.
What are you reading right now?
I am currently reading Army of None which is about artificial intelligence and how weapons will be used in the future where there is no need for soldiers anymore because they will be replaced by drones. The book is interesting because of its insight on technological advances in warfare but also due to its discussions on ethics of, essentially, having machines in combat.
I know you’re an avid golfer. Have you had a chance to go out for a socially distanced round yet?
I love golfing but unfortunately I haven’t been able to get out yet. My husband likes to golf too so we are hoping to get out on the courses soon.
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How did you get started in real estate??
I fell into the industry by chance. I graduated from University of Toronto with a Bachelor of Commerce in Finance. I then got my CFA and started working at Manulife in lots of different areas, including high yield bonds, private equity, and private debt in the US. Around the time of the Financial Crisis I was looking to come back to Canada and one of the only positions Manulife had available was in real estate. So I decided to give it a try and absolutely fell in love with it. It perfectly combines the people component by allowing me to meet people and develop the relationships needed to do deals, and the analytical side which allows me to work on financial modeling which I enjoy. I also prefer the equity side over the debt side – on the debt side you always have to worry about what can go wrong and I would much rather worry about what can go right.
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You have been with Manulife for over 15 years and your career progression has been impressive. Can you tell us about your current role as Chief Investment Officer and the strategy of the Manulife US REIT?
Manulife US REIT is a public REIT that allows Asian investors to invest in US assets in a tax efficient and liquid manner. The REIT combines Manulife’s strong relationships and distribution networks in Asia with its expertise in managing real estate in the US. We were the first US real estate asset product to be listed on the Singapore stock exchange and is one of the fastest growing listings. The REIT started out with more of a retail base but we have been making a concerted effort to move towards a more institutional base. The REIT was recently added to the FTSE EPRA Nareit Global Developed Index which will help increase our exposure to institutional clients around the world.
I am based in North America (though a more accurate description would be that I am based on a plane, pre-Covid of course) and I execute investment strategies for the REIT by working closely with our investment and property management teams on the ground. I am also involved in fundraising and promotion of the REIT, so I would fly to Singapore as well as Hong Kong and Thailand a few times a year to meet with our investors, the media and the analysts there.
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At Manulife, you started as an Investment Analyst, have held positions in leasing and portfolio management and are now part of the senior leadership team of the US REIT. What were some of the keys to your success? Is there anything you would have done differently looking back?
One of the keys to my success was being open to opportunities when they presented themselves. I’m a big believer in learning about different aspects of the industry and I have worked in several different areas in real estate including leasing, investments and portfolio management.
Another key was taking initiative and asking to be put on new projects at the company. For example, when Manulife wanted to make a push into private asset investment management a few years ago, it formed a task force to understand the market and the available opportunities. I put up my hand and was tasked with doing market research. Even though this project had nothing to do with real estate, I obtained insight into what the high priority goals and asset classes were for the company, and also received exposure to senior management. So my advice would be to take initiative and work on different projects even if they are not be directly related to what you want to do or what your current role is.
If I could do one thing differently, I would have spent some time on the sell-side early in my career, as I think it would have given me additional valuable insight into the industry.
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You’ve worked in Singapore, Canada and the US. Can you share any advice on how you approach an international opportunity?
Try to be forward thinking and acknowledge that there is always something to learn about other cultures. Even in the US there are still nuanced differences in how Americans approach relationships and doing business. Obviously in Singapore the difference is more dramatic. For example, the concept of “face” is very important there and we have to be careful that we don’t do anything that might inadvertently upset someone and cause them to “lose face”. Another example is that I was recommended to not wear all black to meetings because a black outfit, even though it may be seen as sophisticated in North America, is associated with mourning in Asia and represents a somber mood. That’s definitely not the impression you want to give when you are trying to appear optimistic as you sell something to a potential investor.
Lastly, navigate the differences with an open mind! The last thing you want to say is “well in Canada this is how we do things” which will not score any points with your potential investors and business partners.
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What is the most memorable deal you have ever worked on?
It would have to be a transaction from a few years ago when I was senior portfolio manager of Canadian real estate. We were purchasing a retail asset with a development component in a partnership structure. All three things (retail, development, partnership) were new to Manulife’s third-party investment strategy but the deal made sense for our investors. I had to navigate through a number of moving pieces to get that deal done, including negotiating the joint venture agreement, managing the downside risk of the development component, and making sure the transaction fits within the investment strategy but at the same time provides the right incentives to and motivations for both partners. Fortunately we had great support from the rest of the team including our outside advisors, and we were able to successfully close the deal.
It’s funny though that often the most memorable things aren’t the deals themselves but the things that went wrong during a deal. You never know what it will be and it will always be out of the blue, and when they happen you have to work with the team to figure out a solution. Fortunately the deals always end up working out despite these last minute surprises!
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What current real estate trends (both before and after Covid-19) are you paying attention to?
The use of office space and the integration of technology are two trends that have been gaining traction before Covid, and Covid will simply accelerate the adoption of these two trends. Before Covid the question was about how small of a space we need and how are the tech companies using perks to attract millennials by setting up offices in the right places and offering amenities for the employees. It used to be that the company will choose a location and the employees will follow. Now, in the war for talent and with the employees being the main assets of the company, companies are going where the employees are and trying to figure out what space will make them most productive.
I don’t see office going away any time soon even post-Covid. I am a strong believer in the importance of having people physically together to encourage creativity and productivity. I think everyone will want to go back to the office once we are permitted to do so, but the question is what will that look like? There will be a focus on cleaning protocols and providing more space, including more meeting rooms and conference space for employees, so that people can feel comfortable being in the same area as others. This is where technology comes in, by making sure the space is safe for employees and also to help increase the employees’ productivity.
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The business community’s focus on diversity has certainly increased since you started your career. Can you share your thoughts as they pertain to the real estate industry?
The diversity factor that is most prevalent in my career is gender and on the investment side I think the industry has done a good job in getting women into entry level positions, but there is more work to be done at the directors and managing director levels. After about 10 years of experience, the number of women in profit and loss positions drops dramatically, with extremely small representation at the C-suite level. When I attend meetings with my investment counterparts, I am often the only woman at the table.
Some policies that companies can consider to encourage more diversity include permitting more flexibility and putting less emphasis on face time as long as tasks are getting done and the project is moving forward. We have seen from Covid that employees can be just as productive working from home so I think the recent “work from home” trend will benefit the push for diversity.
It is also important for younger women to have senior role models who can share tips on how they managed to balance work with family life, how they navigated the “alpha male” culture in some parts of our industry, and how they combated the “aggressive female” stereotype when the same qualities are seen as “leadership characteristics” in men. The role models should ideally be mid-career employees so women in junior levels can envision their careers 5-7 years from now.
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What advice do you have to give to young professionals in commercial real estate?
Just do it. Take initiative, stretch yourself, and don’t be afraid to bite off more than you can chew. You will surprise yourself at what you can accomplish.
